Okay, I would like to paste here some of my comments in the closed discussion thread. It started by someone who was blaming US in starting a war in the region. Obviously I can only paste my own comments, so you may only guess what other’s were saying.
not a single drop of blood was shed in Ukraine (because of ethnicity) before Russia began to “defend” Russians there.
Ukraine did not need a war. And war would not happen, if not Russia. Russia needed a war because it does not want Ukraine to leave. And they did everything they can afford in order to keep them or prevent them from moving towards civilization, or at least make their lives harder.
>the troubles in Ukraine and elsewhere are most likely to have been fomented by the western powers, specifically USA and britain
If it were, I don’t care, because it’s for Ukraine’s good.. Please, try to look to this situation from the Ukrainian point of view, not American and not Russian.
They are pissed of of people like Yanukovich, thieves, and corruption. You may say there is corruption in the West. Certainly, but not to this extent.
This people want to live like people in Belgium or Finland. They don’t want to live in a place where everything is banned, and you can be put to jail for many years for a couple of words, which some court(which of course is not independent) may accept as “gay propaganda”, “insult of religious feelings”, etc. They don’t want to live in a union, (eurasian) where shorts(or pants?) with laces are banned. They don’t want to live in a Union where one and only one history textbook is allowed, which praises Stalin’s regime. etc, etc, etc.
So Russia has nothing to suggest to Ukraine. Except brute force.
Now abount Russian fears, like NATO. First, USA, Russia and Britain forced Ukraine to refuse from it’s nuclear power, by guaranteeing it’s territorial wholeness. USA and Britain did not do that, Russia annexed Crimea.
Instead of this, Putin could just leave the Ukraine to do what they want. Because it’s not his businness what INDEPENDENT Ukraine wants to do. He can ask them, beg them to not have NATO there. He can use other variants. But not doing his dirty tricks.
I define Ukrainian movement as liberation and anti-imperialistic movement. You hate US. US did a lot of dirty things too. But west is very good for Ukraine now. West may mean they won’t have faked elections anymore, they will have independent court, they won’t have one guy ruling and pressuring the country, they will have real freedom of speech.
This is what you have, to much more extent than they have. And that’s why you think they can have it. Or do you think it’s easy to live in Yanukovich’s Ukraine, Putin’s Russia, or Sargsian’s Armenia? It sucks!
We here can see the example of Georgia, our neighbour country. Saakashvili was pro US president. Georgia have paid with it’s territories for that. But! Guess what? They don’t have bribes anymore! You know, they have perfect police! I remember their police like 10 years ago, and now it’s completely different! It’s unbelievable that policeman can take bribe! There are no bribes on low level at all. I guess there are at the high level, at the level of government. But regular citizens are now much more safe from the despotism of the government. And you know, many say – it’s in the nation’s mentality, the nation, these people cannot live the other way. And Saakashvili have proved, that they can! We can! It’s not ideal, of course. And that’s why people did not like Saakashvili. There are many reasons. But he failed in elections! He failed! So those who were calling him a dictator now need to swallow their tongs. Because dictators never fail during elections, they fake elections.
Some people here say – you want Armenia to be closer to Europe? Look how Greece suffers! You know, I would like Armenia to suffer like Greece! It’s like unbelievably cool for us now. It’s just happiness.
>It looks that way to me as well. Like NATO and the “free world” is attempting to back Russia into a corner.
That’s very good for us! Please do that, back Russia into the corner, so it can leave us alone! Russia exports gas, corruption, and obscurantism. If not they, we would build a good country, instead of this. Seriously. And we started very well, unless Russians made an overturn here by sending killer group into our parliament and killing influential and independent politicians. You live in US, you see which dirty tricks US does. Russia is worse for us.
Look, we are in blockade by Turkey and Azerbaijan, right? We could settle this up like 15 years ago. Russia does not need it. They sell weapons to Azerbaijan for trillions of dollars, and they sell weapons to us. They enrich and enrich their military bases in Armenia. I guess I live in the most militarized place in the world.
So we can get cheap gas from Iran. You have tried to build a pipeline. Russia banned that, first they did not allow to build the pipeline with enough diameter, then they forced the puppet state to give the pipe to them. They forced the puppet state to give to them everything, just everything we own. They now behave like Armenia is just one of the Russian provinces, and Putin even have said that, “it’s not different from Kaliningrad oblast”, he said. That’s very sad, because they suck the last blood out of this country. Third of the population just left, imagine, 30% of population left the country because of the conditions. But if not Russia, we could settle all conflicts, and just live and develop.
I am afraid, Russia must collapse, in order to become a normal country. Because they will always tolerate dictators because of the fear that they will collapse. And they have to, because where is Russia? There are Chechnya, there are Tatars, Ingushes, etc, etc!
And yes! Look what they have made in Chechnya! They just eliminated population there, Russians and Chechens, does not matter. They were killing just everyone during the war. Because Chechens wanted to be independent. So Russians don’t allow their regions to gain independence and turn cities into ash in that case, but they support separatism in Ukraine! Is it better than US does? It worse in this case, because Ukraine can become a normal country like Czech Republic or Poland instead of living in Soviet shit just because Russians want to control more land, and call it “safety”. Go **** yourself with your safety, we don’t care!
Besides, Russia had shown, that it’s the best thing what post soviet country can do for it’s safety, is to join NATO. To be safe from Russia. Alas, it’s not that easy.
Okay, I can hear you. Now I would like to apologize for behaving somehow emotional, and some illiteracy. that’s caused by lack of time to review and edit the text.
Now, I agree, that saying “it’s for their own good’ indeed does not remind me anything good. The first association is Russian pre-maidan propaganda “Ukraine, you are going to the Europe, where everyone engaged in incest, if they are not gay”. (((:
Now, lets try to clarify which is Russian influence, and which is USA influence in this case.
First of all, Ukraine gets approached by Europe guys – “come to play with us”. Okay, Ukraine wants to go to play with them. By saying Ukraine we mean the part which is ok that there are gays in the company. The Russian speaking part does not show any sign of being disturbed. After all, EU is not only about sexual minorities, as Russian propaganda states, but also about ethnic minorities, and joining EU to some extent means not only to have laws confirming equal rights of lgbt people, but also signing papers like European charter for Regional or Minority Languages. Ukraine had to ratify the paper sooner or later. Which means rights of Russian speaking people would be protected.
Also, we can fix now, that Russian speaking people are not getting killed in Dnepropetrovsk, in Kiev, in Lvov. They are getting killed in the regions where Putin decided to “defend” them, because of the war, he started.
What is Russian reaction to Ukraine trying to play the game with Europe? He was trying to pressure Yanukovich in order to cancel the deal, and evertually succeeded in that. It’s not that hard to pressure corrupted authorities. However, when Yanukovich was elected, he have promised to the people that Ukraine will continue to move towards European integration.
Now, let’s not discuss if it’s good or bad for Ukraine (I believe it’s good, not perfect, but good, and that does not matter in this context).
But we may fix now that movement towards EU was a desire of majority of the people. Yanukovich was elected (indeed, was elected), he won Timoshenko during fair elections, which Timoshenko ensured. So Timoshenko did not fake elections, let’s also fix that. That means she’s a really democratic leader, she left.
I have no doubts that Yanukovich would fake next elections in order to continue to rob the people and implement promises he made to Putin. Anyway.
We have fixed the desire of the people and movement of pretty pro Russian president, who came from Donetsk (where is war now) towards EU.
Now, which was Russian influence? First of all, anti-maidan propaganda. Next, they were publicly saying that Yanukovich must not be a coward and must make violence against maidan. When Yanucovich run away, of course to Russia, they annexed Crimea. Afterwards, they made troubles in Donetsk and Luhansk regions. So the influence of Russians was first to prevent Ukrainian movement towards Europe, and later, to make Ukraine feel bad for that decision by cutting it’s parts and promoting the war.
Which is USA influence in this case? USA is supporting the desire of Ukrainian people. Of course not because USA has strong love toward that people. It has it’s own reasons. But now it actually trying to help (not hard enough, as I think) to Ukraine to move where Ukraine wants.
So now we can see that Russia shows aggression and violence, because they don’t like Ukrainian choice, and US shows support because they like Ukrainian choice. I would judge US in other case, but it supports Ukrainian choice.
Now, I may agree that US and EU may be were pushing too hard the Ukraine from their side too, by not taking into consideration the presence and possible reaction of the hooligan guy in Russia. I think that’s because they are not good in politics, they did not expect Russia to interfere in such cruel way. They were saying – don’t impede Ukraine from going where it wants. That’s all. But they had to remember what happened in Georgia in 2008. So after that I had no doubts that Russia will take Crimea. No doubts at all. While Europe and America seemed to be surprised.
So in this game, Russia plays much worser role, than USA or Europe. Because USA and Europe support people of Ukraine (and of course their own interests, this time they overlap with what Ukraine wants), while Russia goes against will of Ukrainian people. So it plays the role of the bad guy, while US plays the role of the good guy here. We remember that it’s a role, but we cannot say its unfair now. It’s like when you know that this policeman is taking bribes usually, and we cannot trust him, but this time he defends your interests because he also is an interested party. So in this case he is making his job and we cannot blame him. That’s it.